Author Topic: Fiber optic lighting? (Read 9066 times)

Dankicity · « **on:** February 07, 2009, 21:59:27 »

I've been watching a buddy -- fellow Ohio Reef member -- try to get his tank the most light per buck and as it happens I was looking around for a natural lighting system for my home using fiber optics and became curious how plausible it would be for his tank.

I have read about others using natural tank lighting from well placed windows and it's pros and cons -- mostly the need for a chiller to handle temperature fluctuation -- which made me think that fiber optics would be a good alternative if it can bring enough light in.

I'm figuring -- with what little knowledge I have on the subject -- that you could at least use a 50/50 mixture of natural/artificial lighting to reduce costs.

Has anyone already done this? Err is anyone willing to take the time to type it up or post the links that I obviously didn't find?

Would a simple Fresnel lens work to focus light onto the ends of fiber optic lighting cables?

How large would the lens have to generally be? -- I understand it's relative to my longitude, season, weather and what not but a general min and/or max would help me to know it's plausibility, for example, if I would have to have my whole roof covered for it to work.

Thanks prior for any effort.

PS by now and by my # of posts you should understand I'm a nub reefer... forgive me.

Dankicity · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2009, 22:41:30 »

Concept -- http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/246/
Really cheap FO but beyond my energy level --

LED & Natural FO ex --

lazylivin · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2009, 03:03:54 »

Sounds like a neat idea although would probably loose ultraviolet and infrared rays through the fiber cable. But if you are trying to add Lux (what you see) apposed to PAR it could work. Here is a neat Solar Setup.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1457056&highlight=Gone+Solar

ohioreef · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:13:53 »

Ive read about people using solar tubes above their tanks for natural lighting. I believe I saw it on ReefCentral.

MechanicalEngineer · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2009, 20:05:35 »

It would work for a fish-only tank, but I don't know enough about fiber optics for coral growth. LED's are pretty popular for smaller coral tanks. Like Lazy said, you'll probably be missing some key light spectrum/PAR...and I'm sure the depth penetration isn't great.

Dankicity · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2009, 20:38:34 »

That sounds like a better solution than what I was looking at. I was just hoping that the fiber optics would not require... three

massive holes in the ceiling and roof.

I guess I didn't think anyone would mind the loss of infrared(just means heat, right?) and that maybe the ultraviolet could be replaced with LEDs.

The cool thing I noticed when reading about the combo LED and Natural lighting is that you put the LEDs at the receiving end on the fiber optics -- I probably need to do up a Blender model to give an example -- but it means that you can mix & pack all your LEDs (and heat) far away from the spots that need light and not have to build the crazy -- salt encrusted -- wiring for the LEDS in your fixture.

I'm definitely going to try this in my house... probably the half bath for starters. Buy that light-meter app for my iPhone [insert oohs and ahhs] and see how that matches up to my buds tank.

jeremyt · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2009, 21:10:19 »

wha......you found a light meter app for your iphone?

MechanicalEngineer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2009, 21:19:04 »

Does it give Lux or PAR? I'm assuming lux...which means you'll need to know the spectrum of your lighting to calculate PAR. (Lux isn't too useful with aquariums.) If it gives PAR...I think I might have to get me one of those fancy dancy doo-dad phones.

lazylivin · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2009, 22:30:09 »

If you could get the fiber optic thing working it would be pretty cool. You know how corals always look so good from top down because light is coming from top down. Well you could run the fiber into to the tank and have it pointing at the corals from front to back. Kinda of like landscape spot lights pointing out a house at night. Have them run under the sand bed pointing toward the corals. If you could do that it would be revolutionary.

MSUJenn · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2009, 16:58:41 »

Do you happen to know the name of the light meter application for iPhone? I'm interested in reading about it, but I can't find it in the app store.

Dankicity · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2009, 18:40:19 »

Yea, not quite sure where I had seen the light meter -- late night searching -- but it was only for lux and a couple people said it wasn't all that accurate. Another downside is that it was for cracked iPhones because it used the still camera to take video -- which the iPhone can easily do but doesn't allow. Nail in the coffin -- for now -- is that Apple broke the 'jailbreak' crack with the 2.2.1 update. So who knows. Got a mac mini on the way so I can finally make an app myself (=$$$).

@ Lazy -- I had all sorts of crazy designs running through my head of what you could do but most of them I feared would give the fish a heart attack! Damn near gave me one thinking about it.

I mean having something like those Solaris LED fixtures running it... just makes your mouth water.

As for how much light fiber optics can handle. From everything I've read -- which I'm less nub than on reefing -- says that fiber optics can handle any wavelength of light.

"which means it can deliver more light than traditional systems; and it delivers full-spectrum sunlight" -- http://spie.org/x8708.xml

and "Full-spectrum light is light that covers the electromagnetic spectrum from infrared through near-ultraviolet," -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-spectrum

So far so good.

lazylivin · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2009, 20:58:55 »

Sounds like you could be on to something. It would be a lot easier running fiber cable from the roof then trying to install sun dome's.

cyberwollf · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2009, 21:06:16 »

I have always wanted to "pipe" light into my basement window, but i figured elbows on solar tubes would have horrible losses. What is the loss coefficient of fiber?

Dankicity · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2009, 00:08:49 »

The best I could find was in communication terms...
"new generation....where fiber loss is 0.2 to 0.3 dB/km" -- http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.sff.net/people/Jeff.Hecht/history.html

Really it looks like it depends on how you send in the light and quality of any splices (which look really complicated...best avoided). From my previous post link they had made it seem that light would basically traffic jam and not go with the fibers unless you focused them right.

Guess I need to find out how to build an intake that doesn't need to track the sun to get a stable light source...and focuses the sun right... in the right spectrum... with a minuscule budget... gulp

cyberwollf · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2009, 20:19:35 »

awhile back i was talking to an airman from comm squadron about splices. Apparntly it uses a $90k machine to weld the ends of fiber togeather while preserving the crystal lattice to transmit light without a seam. Probably dont need that precision for this project

Dankicity · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2009, 00:20:24 »

I can't find the pic of the splice again but it basically looked like one of those pictures from a particle accelerator http://blog.wired.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/19/higgsboson350px.jpg

Thinking this for testing cable

250 Strand EndGlow which is for outdoor landscaping but if I understand correctly they don't vary all that much.
http://cgi.ebay.com/225-Strand-End-Glow-Fiber-Optic-Lighting-Cable_W0QQitemZ360121078480QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item360121078480&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

What I'm thinking for a test rig. In a real world the LED's would maybe be a ring around the outside with sunlight being focused through the middle -- could melt circuit board.

I'm still trying to find a solid answer if a Fresnel lens could replace the expensive lenses ... even though they are quite small.

Dankicity · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:41:55 »

What an "Illuminator" does for fiber optics
http://www.thefoa.org/tech/lighting/illuminator.jpg

With a better render... from looking at the illuminators I think you'd need one of these for each tube for the sake of simplicity
..and most likely not that many LEDs ... those cables at scale would be about 3in. wide.
Started as an array 19x19 = 360ish LEDs = Very hot which is why you now see fans slots above the circuit board...and power supply

Dankicity · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:02:37 »

Last one... US spot for LEDs with so many options and details -- http://www.superbrightleds.com/leds.htm

Dankicity · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2009, 00:45:35 »

Time to start making some purchases.

This video helps clear up a couple questions. First part is interesting but I was only interested in the power wires and soldering process.

in use with this board
http://www.ledsdirect.com/circuitboards2.htm

and a good indicator of what the end lighting should be
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2

Good Information ... for me..
http://www.aquaristsonline.com/blog/aquarium-equipment/aquarium-lighting/aquarium-led-lighting-a-major-advance-or-is-metal-halide-still-the-light-of-choice/

Anyone know what I could dip the cables in to make sure they didn't leach chemicals? -- So you can put them under water

Some kind of epoxy dip?

cyberwollf · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2009, 09:45:34 »

Did you go with a 5mm led or something with a high power in the 3watt range. 5mm do not have the power to support anything photosynthetic. I was really close to a DIY led build, but never did it. If you want more information on the cheapest way to do leds that have the power check out nano-reefs.com. Any thread that evil66 has posted in would be a good start. What size tank was this project for? be aware the led cost for lighting something around 20 gallons will still be around $200. Add to that any losses from the fiber... If you use LEDs why do you want to physically separate them from the tank by fiber?

Did you find out anything more on a lens to focus sunlight? I find that possibility interesting.

I really think you are going to need PAR meter for this project too. There any many times when people say "that looks bright" only to find out they are less than 50 PAR with LEDs

Dankicity · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2009, 11:21:44 »

I wanted LEDs for a couple reasons.

Knowing the composition of light lets me judge the loss in the fiber optics or my method of focusing it, distance etc.. Then if I find the light makes it through I can replace the top part -- seperates at the top lens -- with a parabolic mirror or Fresnel lens.

Once you have the light coming through the fiber optics -- with natural light or with the LEDs -- you have an light source for the tank(s) that doesn't emit heat or carry an electric current -- meaning it can be submerged. Given that LEDs are best -- at least the ones I was looking at -- if kept less than 24" from the target. Even the fancy Solaris sets are recommended for nano, which I didn't know.

While still sticking with LED's you might make a group of maybe 4 LEDs that are in the green spectrum and target fiber optics on only the corals that like green light. Or if you're really crafty, you can send the natural light trough a prism that breaks the spectrum up and sends it toward the fiber.... ok maybe not that one.

Plus, I wanted to also use this to light my house during the day and night. I need to incorporate a balance of both for that to work.

Looking up at it. Fibers at the bottom in the white blur -- render times and lighting mistakes don't mix

Sun Tracking?

PS... I just put it to scale and to do 14 cables I need a Fresnel lens that is 80" wide or so... about the size of a small kitchen... lol

Dankicity · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:00:34 »

To scale on a 1500ft home. Forgive the lighting, The scene was setup for indoors.

cyberwollf · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:36:12 »

What is your electrical experience level? that sun tracker looks fairly simple if you decide to go down that road. I have all the equipment to program and burn ICs

Dankicity · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:46:29 »

This requires electrical experience?

I'm going off of what I think is most useful from the 200-some websites I've been on in the past couple of days -- errr what I can remember to jot down before I forget.... hence this absurd diary of the project.

I've always wanted to learn how to do that. I make websites -- mostly (enjoy) flash -- but have always wanted to get a bit deeper down the rabbit hole.

I know I will need something that slides the LEDs over to let the natural light in if I were to do a day and night lighting setup.

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear back from a couple people on how well different options would work. I think it's going to be plenty of light if it all makes it through the cables.

I pictured the lens curved so that it would catch the sunrise and sunset but in that case I don't really need it to be fresnel.

Dankicity · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2009, 13:23:08 »

Could you make Lunars turn on from a light sensor?... that would be cool.

2024 Ohio Reef Frag Swap

Author Topic: Fiber optic lighting? (Read 9066 times)

Dankicity

Dankicity

MechanicalEngineer

Dankicity

MechanicalEngineer

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity

Dankicity